it’s hilarious to me when people call historical fashions that men hated oppressive
like in BuzzFeed’s Women Wear Hoop Skirts For A Day While Being Exaggeratedly Bad At Doing Everything In Them video, one woman comments that she’s being “oppressed by the patriarchy.” if you’ve read anything Victorian man ever said about hoop skirts, you know that’s pretty much the exact opposite of the truth
thing is, hoop skirts evolved as liberating garment for women. before them, to achieve roughly conical skirt fullness, they had to wear many layers of petticoats (some stiffened with horsehair braid or other kinds of cord). the cage crinoline made their outfits instantly lighter and easier to move in
it also enabled skirts to get waaaaay bigger. and, as you see in the late 1860s, 1870s, and mid-late 1880s, to take on even less natural shapes. we jokingly call bustles fake butts, but trust me- nobody saw them that way. it was just skirts doing weird, exciting Skirt Things that women had tons of fun with
men, obviously, loathed the whole affair
(1864)
(1850s. gods, if only crinolines were huge enough to keep men from getting too close)
(no date given, but also, this is 100% impossible)
(also undated, but the ruffles make me think 1850s)
it was also something that women of all social classes- maids and society ladies, enslaved women and free women of color -all wore at one point or another. interesting bit of unexpected equalization there
and when bustles came in, guess what? men hated those, too
(1880s)
(probably also 1880s? the ladies are being compared to beetles and snails. in case that was unclear)
(1870s, I think? the bustle itself looks early 1870s but the tight fit of the actual gown looks later)
hoops and bustles weren’t tools of the patriarchy. they were items 1 and 2 on the 19th century’s “Fashion Trends Women Love That Men Hate” lists, with bonus built-in personal space enforcement
Gonna add something as someone who’s worn a lot of period stuff for theatre:
The reason you suck at doing things in a hoop skirt is because you’re not used to doing things in a hoop skirt.
The first time I got in a Colonial-aristocracy dress I felt like I couldn’t breathe. The construction didn’t actually allow me to raise my arms all the way over my head (yes, that’s period-accurate). We had one dresser to every two women, because the only things we could put on ourselves were our tights, shifts, and first crinoline. Someone else had to lace our corsets, slip on our extra crinolines, hold our arms to balance us while a second person actually put the dresses on us like we were dolls, and do up our shoes–which we could not put on ourselves because we needed to be able to balance when the dress went on. My entire costume was almost 40 pounds (I should mention here that many of the dresses were made entirely of upholstery fabric), and I actually did not have the biggest dress in the show.
We wore our costumes for two weeks of rehearsal, which is quite a lot in university theatre. The first night we were all in dress, most of the ladies went propless because we were holding up our skirts to try and get a feel for both balance and where our feet were in comparison to where it looked like they should be. I actually fell off the stage.
By opening night? We were square-dancing in the damn things. We had one scene where our leading man needed to whistle, but he didn’t know how and I was the only one in the cast loud enough to be heard whistling from under the stage, so I was also commando-crawling underneath him at full speed trying to match his stage position–while still in the dress. And petticoats. And corset. Someone took my shoes off for that scene so I could use my toes to propel myself and I laid on a sheet so I wouldn’t get the dress dirty, but that was it–I was going full Solid Snake in a space about 18″ high, wearing a dress that covered me from collarbones to floor and weighed as much as a five-year-old child. And it worked beautifully.
These women knew how to wear these clothes. It’s a lot less “restrictive” when it’s old hat.
I have worn hoop skirts a lot, especially in summer. I still wear hoop skirts if I’m going to be at an event where I will probably be under stage lights. (For example, Vampire Ball.)
I can ride public transportation while wearing them. I can take a taxi while wearing them. I can go on rides at Disneyland while wearing them. Because I’ve practiced wearing them and twisting the rigid-but-flexible skirt bones so I can sit on them and not buffet other people with my skirts.
Hoop skirts are awesome.
Hoop skirts are a fucking godsend in summer. Nothing’s touching your legs. It’s like wearing a big box underneath whic you’re naked, temperature wise.
Did this with a bustle rather than a hoop skirt, but was quite comfortable running around in said bustle, shirt, full corset, gloves, and overskirt in 117 degrees for a con. It was far more comfortable than the more modern dress i wore the next day.
Writer Note: this is fascinating research information not restricted to just the Victorian era under discussion. Though it’s stating the obvious, the obvious often needs to be stated: when seemingly-awkward garments like crinolines and hoop-skirts (or ruffs, or houppelandes, or etc.) were everyday wear, the wearers knew how to move in them because of practice.
For instance, how not to clear a table with a gesture while wearing sleeves like these…
Fashionable footwear has been weird for centuries.
Think of chopines, pattens, poulaines,
non-fetishy-y high heels, or platform boots worn with bell-bottom jeans so long and wide
that without the platforms
they trailed along the ground. The 1970s is called “the decade that style forgot” for good reason.
Elton John’s stage platforms aren’t as exaggerated as you think…
And then there are the doeskin breeches claimed in some fiction as fitting so tightly the
inside had to be soaped to get them on, going commando was compulsory, and the wearer couldn’t sit
down.
You’d certainly believe it from portraits like this one, “Hunter in a Landscape with his Dogs”, said to be General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, father of Alexandre Dumas the novelist, with legs apparently clad in just a thick coat of paint. (X-skin breeches would seem more suitable for hunting, but these may represent cotton “inexpressibles” which really did fit like that.)
Like the supposed problems with crinolines etc., not true. Research and reconstruction has shown that doe / buck / sheepskin
breeches have natural stretch and recovery; a common comparison is to
old, well-worn jeans. Of course the artist also wanted to show that his subject “had a good leg” (look up “artificial calves” and be amused) and wasn’t letting realism get in the way of doing so.
This is a bit more like it.
Nowadays “deportment” seems to have an aura of outdated snobbishness – upper-class debutantes learning to curtsey, or walk with books balanced on their heads – but ”porte” in French means “carry”
and the old meaning of deportment was “how to carry yourself”; how to move properly, without inconveniencing yourself or others.
Various historical-costume books point out that “moving properly” in some periods – memory suggests the court of Louis XIV at Versailles was one – meant a sequence of artificial, prescribed gestures, partly enforced by the clothing and partly by court protocol. IIRC one description was of “movements as precisely delineated as the steps of a formal dance”, and getting them wrong resulted in social mockery.
Elizabethan men were taught, as part of their deportment, how to move while wearing the long rapiers of the period; that hand-on-hilt stance in portraits isn’t drama, it’s control.
Once familiar with the length of the sword, they know exactly what shifting the hilt one way or another will do to the rest of it – and the people, furniture and crockery behind them – without needing to look. IIRC the technique is still taught to actors today.
Crinolines, bustles, bloomers, breeches, inexpressibles and all the rest were clothing; after reading about peculiar but oh-so-stylish ways of standing and moving like the “Grecian bend” and “Alexandra limp”, the Kink’s satirical 1960s hit “Dedicated Follower of Fashion” isn’t just a song any more…
:->
Even better than the version I posted before.
I would note that I have a RenFaire style corset and I have run significant distances, sword fought, and danced in various styles without any discomfort. The only thing I can’t do is bend over. It actually forces you to pick things off the ground safely. It’s not wasp waist tight, partly because I have abs and don’t compress like that (which might be part of the wasp waist thing. Being able to do that said you didn’t have abs…and thus didn’t work for a living, which has often been a thing with women’s fashion).
This is all really interesting and new to me! And I have thought of deportment as a snobbish thing all my life, but now I’m wondering if early lessons in it would have been a good thing for clumsy and oblivious folks like me.
Somebody should…I wonder if I can convince some cosplayers to do a panel about this. Both for authenticity and because some of them need to learn what happens to their sword when they turn around quickly…
why in the tmfu fandom the headcanon about illya dressing badly and not having a clue about it is so popular when in the movie they made it clear he knew everything about fashion, even more so than napoleon, at least regarding women’s fashion
also why would they perceive him as someone with no sense of fashion when a black turtleneck is the most elegant and timeless piece of clothing known to man
Who wants my very extensive rant/ramble on the differences between Illya’s fashion and Napoleon’s fashion?
Because I have done many researches and therefore I have many thoughts about this and why it’s arguable that neither is more or less fashionable, but they have different fashion sensibilities, which is the actual source of their different aesthetics.
Though who am I kidding, I want me to rant/ramble about this. No one else’s pleading required. This is a thing that will happen.
I have returned from physio and am now prepared to rant/ramble. With links. And pictures. Because I am passionate about art history and fashion history is, like, pretty closely related? Arguable kinda the same thing??
But before the historical tangent, first, my thesis statement: Illya and Napoleon are both acutely aware of the overall concepts of fashionability at the time. They can both put together an outfit. They know what they’re doing. The difference is that Napoleon’s personal fashion sensibility is much more conservative and formal, while Illya’s is much more trendy and casual.
And now, as promised, the tangent. So, the 1960s was a time of huge, HUGE shifts in fashion (and culture as a whole). Suddenly The Youths™ are dressing differently then their parents??? What is this madness?? Fashion was evolving very rapidly, and not just women’s fashion. Fashion is never just women’s fashion. Menswear was also rocked by Young People doing their thing.
Late 50s/early 60s menswear looked, functionally, like what you see Waverly, Sanders, and Oleg wear.
(Men’s suit, 1961, English. Pic courtesy of the V&A)
Three-piece suits, pleated front trousers. This tie is notable in that it’s a bit more forward-leaning, both in cut (skinny) and pattern (bold, organic shapes). If outwear was required, it would be a long overcoat.
This is also what, for most of the movie, Napoleon wears.
(side note, cutting Gaby out of this pic was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do)
But there are some touches that modernize (for the period) Napoleon’s suits. He doesn’t wear hats, for one, which would still be a typical accessory for a suit. His pocket square choices are consistently playful, with polka dots seeming a favourite.
And he adds other playful touches to his suits. Most notably the grey plaid suit (aka the “dat ass tho” suit).
The cut is slim, but not radically so. It’s three-piece, which is conservative. And the tie is fairly broad. But there’s a few points that elevate it away from “passé”. First, plaid was in and heavily associated with youth culture, notably Mods. So Napoleon is essentially doing the respectable version of these abominations:
And once again look at that man’s goddamn pocket square. Napoleon, you crazy, lovable rogue. I do not understand your obsession with polka dots, but I support it. Overall, though, this is still formal, which seems to be the world which Napoleon comfortably inhabits. Apart from his “sneaky/shooty” clothes (the factory, the end chase) and his pajamas, he is always shown wearing a suit, or elements of a suit. Are they fashionable suits? Yes. They strike a very nice balance of being suave/respectable without being stodgy. He is not at the leading edge of fashion. Instead he is the kind of person who aims to dress timelessly, rather than chasing trends.
And then there’s Illya.
So, let’s get one thing out of the way, the one thing for which I see Illya ragged on more than anything else (apart from the hat, possibly): the turtleneck. Now that I’ve brought up the topic, I’d like to introduce this picture:
You may have heard of these young lads. They were collectively known as The Beatles. They became rather popular in 1964. Most notably with youth culture. Mod culture, specifically, in the early part of their career. Turtlenecks may be at a very low point, culturally, for us in…good God it’s almost the 2020s I am not okay with that. But point is, just because it doesn’t look cool now, doesn’t mean it wasn’t cool then. Turtlenecks were not just “not utterly goofy”, they were on-trend for 1963.
Let the poor boy wear his turtlenecks.
Let’s look at another Illya fashion staple, notably the jackets. Where Napoleon lives in suits, Illya lives in jackets.
In particular he seems to favour Harrington jackets like this one. They can be identified by the stand-up collar, the zipper front, and (not picture though I can confirm this to be true of Illya’s) elasticized/knit cuffs. Usually made of cotton or cotton blends, though sometimes in suede. They also often feature a plaid lining, which our boy Illya sports too in his “factory” look!
Through the 1950s, Harrington jackets were associated with “rebels” and cultural bad-boys, such as:
James Dean. And also:
A certain mister Steve McQueen, who is also sporting a delightully Illya flat cap in this photo from 1963, aka the same year as our movie! And in the 1960s, the Harrington was adopted by, among others, the Mods. Aka youth culture, aka What is Super Trendy Right Now.
Illya plays with trends. He doesn’t dress wildly, but he has fun with his outfits, and is obviously in touch with youth culture. He likes to look fashionable and even bold, and adopts a much more casual look. (This is also true of his suits, not pictured, which I believe are all two-piece, slimmer cut through the trousers, and skinnier ties than Napoleon).
And now, for the Bonus Round, I am going to further add to my argument by looking at how both men dress Gaby.
Starting once again with Napoleon:
This is….conservative. It’s not unfashionable, but I think it’s fairly obvious, even to the modern eye, that this was not avant-garde by any stretch. The first instinct that ran through my head was two things “Coco Chanel” and “Jackie O”. Both of these instincts proved correct:
See also the iconic “pink” suit by Chanel worn by Jackie O, most notably and regrettably to the assassination of her husband.
Jackie O was considered a fashion icon of the time, but for a specific group of women. Notably, those with more conservative tastes. This was not youth culture. It’s formal, and much like attire you’d expect the wife of any US president to wear. This fits in rather nicely with Napoleon’s own aesthetic; so he’s dressed up Gaby in what he thinks looks good. Her accessories also fit the bill; not stodgy, and the boldness of the shapes makes sure to keep them contemporary, but the all-gold would be notably conservative. With the jacket removed, I’m also getting major Little Black Dress vibes (also Chanel fyi), which is timeless and classic, like Napoleon’s style.
And then Illya has a go, aka the infamous “creamsicle” dress
Colour blocking! Shift dress! Funky hat! Colourful, big, plastic jewelry! Textural stuff going on with that handbag (which apparently costs more than Gaby’s car). Every single goddamn thing about this outfit absolutely screams early-mid 1960s youth cool. If you needed a picture to go in the dictionary next to “Mod fashion”, this might well be it. Once again, Illya is on trend. Go big or go home. You do you, you ginormous Russian fashion nerd.
So, in conclusion, neither Napoleon nor Illya is unaware of fashion. Their outfits are deliberately curated. And neither is unaware of current (to the era) trends. The difference is that Illya embraces trends much more enthusiastically and dresses more casually, whereas Napoleon incorporates trendy elements quite selectively into his wardrobe and dresses more formally.
I could talk more about this but I’ve already blown a lot of time when I should be working, so that’ll have to be it for now. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
This is such a small fandom and I’m unwilling to let people into my house and just throw salt around. HOWEVER this is incredible research and it will certainly give you a nice and interesting insight into tmfu’s costume design and over that a new perspective on our beloved characters.
What a great write up!!! YES!! absolutely Napoleon is more old fashioned than Illya and Illya knows how to dress very well. Oleg clearly gives him lots of freedom to operate in the “west” despite his father’s history. He only resorted to threats when shit hits the fan; Illya must have seen nothing but successes until Napoleon XD
I am totally in agreement that Illya keeps up with fashion but not so sure about “youth culture”, whatever that means. Illya is 30something years old so I don’t think he’d be into whatever teens and 20something years old would be?? But I can see him enjoying the Beatles more than Napoleon.
Also, now I’m going to obsessively study Napoleon’s pocket squares for that little bit of playfulness 😀
i have no idea what fandom this is but i utterly adore the knowledge and desire to educate that went into this post
Hi one of my OT3s whom I love (they are great, they really are) and really cool fashion stuff <3333.
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